Intersection Education

Changing Schools - Bryn, Randy, & Corey
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[00:00:00] Corey: I am here with two of my esteemed colleagues, Bryn Spence, and Dr. Randy Hetherington today. And, uh, gentlemen, we have been speaking a little bit before we got on the mic and started recording here about moves, about leadership moves about coming to new schools. About, uh, what that looks like.

And we were talking about how this happens quite regularly. I mean, the frequency varies from district to district, but it's interesting to see how little specific information is around that. Um, and perhaps. Uh, I think that we, we talked about, there's a, there's a lot of information out that would help us with moves.

How do you deal with that move, but perhaps not framed in the way that we are looking at it today. And so the question here is, uh, when you go to a new school and you are a leader what are some of the best practices? What does research say around how to move into that school?

How to have, uh, an effect, a positive effect, and go from there. And I'm going to start by putting it over to you. Dr. Heatherington. I know you, uh, you've lived this, um, I know you've looked at research that would help us with that. And so when we talk about this, what are some of the things that you think about?

[00:01:19] Randy: Sure. Thanks, Corey. The whole concept of, um, leadership moves and, uh, especially, and I want to refer to, um, to principalships and vice-principal ships as, as middle or upper management type positions. Certainly not the top of the food chain at the superintendency, but. At the upper end of those changes. And for years, for decades, arguably there have been these regular changes at those positions in large part.

I think, uh, if you go back to the Carver business model, it keeping people focused on their own, their own site, their own enterprise, um, such that they, you know, by the time they get comfortable, I mean, your first year, you're just. About your new place, who's in it. What the community's about, et cetera. That first year is a lot of listening.

A lot of learning you're as much a learner as you are a leader in that phase. And that arguably is true right into your second year. As you start to see what can be done, what needs to be done and how to do it. Um, there's a term and it's an older term environmental scanning, uh, and there are certainly newer versions of that, but I still like that, that phrase because.

It talks about you taking a broad view, just like you did in your driver's training. They always tell you to see the big picture. Uh, what is the culture of the school about of the parents, the teachers, the students, how do those interactions happen? What are the triggers? That exists there. What, what do they all believe are the untouchables or are the things that have to keep happening?

Um, what values and beliefs, undergird, those things, uh, are, are at the base of those. And, and perhaps even more importantly, what is the level of collective efficacy in that building? Do all the people. Believe in all the people in it and believe that together, they're a good team. They're a strong team that they can accomplish things together.

And what is that kind of situation? I, I don't want to suggest that when you go into a new school, you don't do any changes. You don't make anything happen. I'm sure we'll get to that later in this discussion, the kind of things you can do, but you can't go with. And try to make changes right off the hop, because a lot of things haven't happened that I know you gentlemen know are, are strongly rooted in the legislature because you got to earn their trust.

You've got to become a trusted leader in that scenario. You have to invest some time build capacity and a few other things. So just as kind of a starting place that environmental scanning, I think is huge. Um, when, when you go into any new building, you have to take the time. To understand all aspects of where you have moved to and where your leadership is now positioned. If that makes any sense.

[00:04:14] Corey: Yeah, absolutely. I think it does, uh, Bryn over to you, I'm starting in a new school. What are some of the things that you initially think about in those first few months and years?

[00:04:25] Bryn: Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with Randy that, you know, it's, it's not about coming in and I, I think, um, Sometimes it's easy to fall into a trap of looking at where you're comfortable and where you are and then how do I change the area or the place that I'm moving into to be more like that. And I think Randy's absolutely right that it's about sitting back and listening and being, uh, gathering that information and kind of getting a really good sense of, of what the environment looks like, uh, as well as building those, those relationships.

I mean, trust is foundational for everything that we do and, and building that sense of trust and, and, uh, ability to work with your staff, to kind of orient yourself to the space and build those, um, those relationships with people who will help you to understand how things are actually going, as opposed to how things appear to be going.

Because I think that's the other thing is as you move into a new building, you start to uncover things that, um, Maybe you don't, uh, you don't, you feel like it could be done a different, different way and then starting to work on those because what, uh, what appears to be on the surface is not always what is actually happening underneath.

Right. And so, uh, being aware of that as well.

[00:05:47] Corey: Yep. One of the things that I think about is, um, and common understanding. And it's this idea of communication that we think is happening, but we're seeing it through a different frame. And so through our lived experience through another building or another experiences, we think that we're talking about one thing, but in reality, and usually. Down the road, not, not immediately. We realized that we thought we were talking about the same thing, but we were actually talking about significantly different things. Or we thought that was one way of doing things. Or we thought that they understood the way that we thought we had a common understanding on the way we were going to proceed and that doesn't happen.

And it talks to this idea that that shared understanding comes with time. And I think that there are some things we can do to increase or shorten the time that that happens and that's through interaction and that's through having conversation, but. It's also the realization that when we walk into a building, there's going to be some communication gaps.

There's going to be times when we just don't. We think that the message is clear, but it's actually not. And we both, probably everyone thinks that it is, but it's it, there's a miscommunication there. There's not, it's not actually getting through. And, um, yeah, I think that. That's a lived experience that I think that anyone coming into a building has.

[00:07:15] Randy: Corey if I, if I can build on that because you, you, you really put in a, um, a great feature in when you spoke of time and the investment of time, uh, because as you go, uh, and then you just articulated quite clearly. Sometimes you think you're talking about a and you realize one's talking about a, and one's talking about B, um, and that's a part of that investment of time, especially in your first year in a new building, it takes time to know your people and, and you can't when, when we say it takes time, that just rolls off the tongue, but there's there's an action to that.

You have to be in the hallways in the morning. You have to be going around through the costumes. You have to be around afterschool having just those casual informal chats with teachers and support staff and others to find out who they are, why they are, what they think, what they believe and give them those opportunities to see clarity.

And I know this will come as a huge shock to you, but this is tied to a very important part of the literature around supervision. And too often people equate evaluation and supervision and they think they're the same process. And they're entirely different supervision can often lead to evaluation down the road, but that's another whole topic for another day.

But if you're going to properly supervise your school from the day, you're appointed as the new leader at that school, your supervision starts and it's a 24 7 365. Activity that you engage in and it involves you being in the physical community where your school resides and seeing the businesses and being visible and having them know you and you know, that it means being in your schools, greeting parents at drop off in the morning.

It means walking around through the hallways while classes are in session, seeing how classes are running, all of that. I mean, there's entire textbooks, uh, Glickman, uh, probably the leader in, in that work, uh, north America wise anyway. Um, but, and there are others, but that work, that supervision piece. As a leader and you nailed it when you talked about time, because supervision, when done properly takes time.

And sometimes we, as leaders have to understand the impact that has on our families and on our, the other parts of our lives of the things, because there's just no substitution for putting in the.

[00:09:41] Bryn: that's a really, uh, important idea, Randy. And I think that it's a, it's a key piece of that initial. Uh, work that needs to happen, right? Like you said, right from the.

day that it gets announced is, is helping people to understand, um, how you approach supervision and how you approach, um, being in your school community.

Because I think that everybody has a slightly different take on what that looks like and, and the way that I do it in the way that Corey does it, or the way that Randy does it. Well, there's similarities. There are differences as well. And so helping staff to understand. Kind of that whole idea of what, what can you expect for me?

What, what's this going to look like? What, uh, if you see me in the hall, you know, don't think that I'm responding to something specific and sometimes I'm just there to observe. Or, uh, when I come into your class, I don't want you to stop instruction and, and kind of. Acknowledge me, even in some cases. And so really giving people the, kind of the rules of engagement, if you will, about how does this work and how do we work together to build a great, uh, a great community that's that built on that foundation of trust?

And I think that's a huge piece, like we talked about is, is that foundation of trust when it's, when it's first announced, you know, how do you start to engage with staff and open those lines of communication, um, to, to start, uh, Kind of orienting yourself to, to what their perspective is and realizing that, you know, their perspective is their reality and, and how do we help, uh, move forward and build a strong school community.

[00:11:13] Corey: I'm going to, I want you to expand on that because I know that when I was moving schools, you helped me out a lot with, um, a practical example of one of the things that you did before you even arrived at the school. So you knew that you were moving and you were finishing up at your previous school and you were moving into the new school.

And, uh, maybe just talk a little bit about what you did there to, to get to know, to, to ask some questions and to gain some information before you even arrived.

[00:11:38] Bryn: Sure. Yeah.

It was an interesting, uh, experience because I had the, uh, opportunity, if you will, to make my move, uh, in the middle of a pandemic, uh, in the middle of. Uh, basically locked down when we were fully online. And, uh, so some of the things that I would normally do just being in the school and, and, uh, I know when I moved to my, the school that I was leaving, one of the things that I I did is I spent lots of time in the school in, in June.

Uh, and I know I, I go back to, uh, Randy, when, when we started with you at Broxton, you spent a significant amount of time in the, in the school leading up to, um, Actually starting as the principal, but just orienting to that space and, and kind of being a visible, uh, commodity within the, within the school building.

And so I was trying to think about, uh, ways to do that because going to be in the school at that point, could be in the physical building, but there were no kids and no staff, uh, essentially in there. And so it was, it was kind of pointless. And so trying to find some ways to open those lines of communication in a slightly different way.

One of the things that I did is over a 12 week period, I had kind of a getting to know, um, Activity that I would send out every Monday morning, uh, asking for, for staff feedback. And so, um, some of them were fun. Like, uh, if, if you were to pick a song, what song best represents the day in the life at the school, um, other ones were, uh, You know, you have a tweet, so you have 140 characters to tell me the best thing about our school.

Um, and different things like that. So some of them were fun and then other ones were, you know, okay. So let's dream big. Like what is, what would, what would make the school. What is, what is, what's the one thing that if you could get one thing to change, what's the one thing that we need to do to make the school better.

Um, and then also, you know, what are the, what are the things that we really hold near and dear to our hearts? What are the things that really make us who we are? And we're not open to changing that, like stay away from this. Um, and so how do you build those, those kind of structures within, uh, Within that environment.

And then it was, it was interesting to see a staff response in some of the questions. There were, there was lots of response. Um, some of the response questions there, wasn't a lot of response. Uh, and, but it, it really gave me a flavor for the school that I was walking into. And I think the biggest thing that it did is it started to allow me to get to know staff and it started to allow me to, um, Open those lines of communication, because what would eventually happen is they would respond.

I could respond back to them and we could get some dialogue going. Um, and then from that, there were a few opportunities to connect in a virtual environment. So Google meets with individual staff members to kind of start to put names to faces and things like that.

[00:14:32] Randy: Bryn that's it. W w what you just struck on there? Something, I mean, I was privileged to have two very, uh, highly qualified and skilled assistant principals on one of my moves to it, to Broxton park. And, and what you just described. I think another benefit of what you just spoke about doing there is what, back in the Broxton days, we called ways we asked, you said, therefore, here's what we're doing.

And it allowed you to build that trust because they could see you were asking them questions. They were taking their time. To give you, uh, an honest response and they could see you process it, respond to them. I'm sure in many cases act upon some of those needs desires wants, et cetera. I look for some of those small wins that we look for early on so that our, our community understands.

Yeah, we can be trusted that if we say this is what we believe, and this is what we're going to do, that it's going to happen and that it's going to get done. And that those things are going to be accomplished. I don't know, Corey, if you, cause you, you were a big person for doing that, especially with your immersion folks.

As I recall.

[00:15:36] Corey: Well, yeah, and I, you know, I, I think that that's important, but one of the things that I found because, um, you know, I just mercilessly stole Brynn's idea. And, uh, what I did is, is I was actually impressed with the candor. Sometimes when you, um, are caught up in the day-to-day operations of schools and you have a existing relationships.

I was worried that I was just going to get canned responses. When, when I asked some pretty deep questions, I was surprised by the candor. And exactly as Brynn said, I was able to follow up and said, what did you mean by that? What is, why would you think that? Or, when you're talking about this, this is an established practice at the school.

Why isn't it working? What might we change that with? And so that was really important. And then for them to go and see that you're actually doing something with that feedback, that's really, really, really important. Um, it builds that trust as we talked about from the hop and what it does as well, is it lets them know that their voice is heard.

Um, that there's a collective response. And. When they say something it's actually, it can be, um, it can be actually taken for, for truth and, and, and will be acted upon. So I want to talk about one next thing, and that is, uh, what we a little bit alluded to, but I want to delve into it a little bit more.

And one of the things that I think really helped when we, uh, started to make really good progress was a shared vision. Mission and values. I want to kick it over to you, Dr. Heatherington to start us off there, because I know this is a lot of your work and it's one of the things that I think if you don't establish right away, you're going to have difficulty with all of the things we talked about, whether that be communication, whether that be about where, where direction we're going. So I want to bring it over to you. Uh, mission, vision values.

[00:17:34] Randy: And as luck would have it in my years, as a member of the administrator instructor Corp or the Alberta teachers association, the one workshop I probably gave more often than any other was the one on mission, vision, values, and goals. Where this is heavily connected. And, and I think we didn't, we forgot to mention this maybe at the start.

Yes. You're coming to a new school as a new leader, but it represents a change for everyone in the building, everyone in the community. And I know is, I think tired now, he for he's known me for a number of years and heard the change, his personal, uh, Statement more times perhaps, and he's wanting to do, but, but it truly, it truly is.

And that's where the mission, vision values piece Corey, that you mentioned comes in. I don't care which change model you choose to adapt. Whether it's it's Lewin's one came out of the late fifties or late forties, early fifties. Unfreezing changing and refreezing, whether you talk about Kotter's model from the business world and his eight steps, you could use that, or you could use Michael Fullan's.

If we want to go into education Fullan's model, uh, of change, where he looks at the three eyes and initiation implementation, and then institutionalization, when he looks at that process for change, the one common element, all change models in the front. Is exactly what you stated is making sure we're we have a shared vision moving forward, common understanding.

So one's not talking about a, the other B, everyone knows what we're doing. They know why we're doing it before we actually start doing it. And that includes, and this is a thing that links to your candor comment. Cory batting clue. Allowing people to believe it is safe to say what they think might not work or what isn't working or what isn't.

And that it's okay. And it is safe to say those things, those kinds of brave space standards, the gracious space situation to do those things. So, yeah. Common mission, vision and shared, shared vision is the cornerstone of any successful change in a new leader. Is that a pretty big change in that?

[00:19:50] Bryn: And I think that that's, that's, uh, a huge piece, Randy, is that the leader does change the entire building. And, and that is something that, uh, I think people will be looking at with, uh, on the situation. In some cases it's a lot of excitement. And in other cases, it's, you know, it's an animosity or anxiety around it.

Uh, and so realizing that?

everybody's going to kind of have a different, a different feeling of what that's going to look like. Um, It's important to remember. And I, I think that's one of the things that I, saw from, from that activity that I was talking about. It was interesting. Cause sometimes, um,

when you were asking about what's the one thing you want to change, there was huge alignment between staff that everybody was kind of saying, this is the, this is the thing that, uh, that we, we need to look at.

Um, at other times there were, there was not alignment where some people were saying, no, we have to keep that this is really important. And other people were saying, no, we have to change that. And so being aware that, you know, uh, Change is personal, but change is also individual. And it's not a case of just, um, we can't just start changing things randomly there's there has to be an intentional and a plan implementation as opposed to just kind of, uh, uh, throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks kind of approach.

[00:21:08] Randy: Can I ask you guys to come into one other thing? Cause I, this is something I wonder and I I'd really value your opinion on it. Um, before I start muttering, There. Oftentimes we w I mean, I was lucky. I went to a school as part of a leadership team. I had two incredibly talented and skilled, uh, assistant principals, and I think that's been true through my entire administrative career, but often you go to a school where you are the administrative. of one, or maybe a team of two, uh, and how you build leadership capacity. I don't know if that's on, on topic for you Corey here, but I think part of going to a new school is, is building the capacity for leadership within that building. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[00:21:52] Corey: Well, do you know what I've, I've come to, to think a little bit more about that. I have. Really lucky to always work at schools where I've been part of a leadership team. And so this makes it so interesting when we look at, um, the nature of collaboration, when we look at how the, how we can actually make progress when working as a team.

And then we think about schools where there is only one person in. Formal leadership team that can be really difficult. And speaking with some other people who have lived that experience, I don't think I fully realized how hard that would be. Um, not only because you know, all of the jobs fall on you. But I think even more than that is that having someone to bounce ideas off of having someone to check biases, having someone to, um, to really clarify thinking.

And so I think that as you said, Randy, if you are in that position where you are coming to a school and you are the only formal leader, it is so important that you identify and develop. Other people as part of that leadership. They may not have the role. They may not have the title, but they're going to have such an important job in making sure that decisions get made correctly.

And I mean, we can get into distributed leadership and, and that whole conversation, there's absolutely going to be a time when you need to, you know, stand on your feet and make a decision. But I think that you're going to have to lean on some other people to, to, to make sure that you're making those decisions that are in line.

And so the you're taking a little bit of load off your shoulders. Um, that's the biggest thing, whether that be a mental load or whether that be a community expectation load, uh, it can be really difficult, especially in some of these smaller towns, uh, in the smaller schools. I don't know if that's what you were thinking about gentlemen.

[00:23:57] Bryn: I think, yeah, like how often did, did conversations happen? Where the three of us are in a room and, and, you know, we're coming at it from three different perspectives and it was really the space in the middle where, um, the actual direction came from, right? It was, it was kind of considering all of that and, and working as a, in a kind of a individual or solo, uh, situation not having that would be really, really challenging.

And so building those relationships with, with the key people, so that you have that informal ability. To set those directions is, is really important because, um, it definitely is the, the, some of the, the experiences of all everybody involved that really kind of makes those sorts of directions, uh, possible.

[00:24:47] Randy: Yeah, it was the thing that kind of brought it to me next. I remember bring that you came, uh, it was part of your career. You came from a very small school that I'm pretty sure only had one, one administrator, um, that, that kind of worked there. So I knew you had some background in that and, and I guess where I'm going with this is I think too often, A lot of the, um, the literature and the stuff that we we give to our leaders in their leadership training is a lot of what I think Fullan and Leith wouldn't company would call that transformational piece, that visionary piece that, that, that upper level.

But there's two other. You know, types of, of leadership approaches, both the transactional. And I think you need some of those transactional people, those transactional leaders on your staff, the people who are the to-do lists, that just, okay, we just got to get this done. Here are the parameters. Here are the rules, we get it.

And it keeps everything moving and keeps everybody feeling safe and secure. And then it allows those. More visionary, transformative people to do some of the things that they do. But recently, and again, I don't know if this is true in your building, certainly is true in the world that I'm living in right now, is that moved to what shields calls, the transformative leadership, which has got a social justice orientation.

And I'm thinking now of the truth and reconciliation commission and the calls to action related to that. And I'm thinking of some of those equity based. Uh, issues that are now pretty prevalent in, in most of the schools, uh, and that the leaders have to factor into all of that environmental scanning. And although, because of the communities that we serve and there are different, and I think you need, if you're going to be a good leader in a new place, you need to know who your transactional folks. Who are going to be the transformational folks who will look after relationships and look after things and make sure things are done in that way. And who are your transformative folks who are the people who see things a little differently, and that might help, uh, to, to coin a phrase, uh, build the airplane while it's in flight or what what's that phrase, Mr.

Haley, agile leadership? Uh, I think, uh, something akin to that, uh, you might know a thing or two about that.

[00:27:05] Corey: Yeah. Yeah, no, it definitely is. Um, a big part of that. I think what, what resonated with me is that sometimes you can be so focused on change that you forget that there is the day-to-day operation that people need. There is, um, secure. Known aspects of school that people need to depend on. Uh, I've come to think that change is actually really only effective if you've got a stable base from which to move and.

I, you know what, when I think about that in the context of moving to a new school, I think that that's probably more of your focus in the first year, rather than a transformational. It is a little bit of that transactional. It should be showing people that everything's okay.

Our day-to-day operations are going to be fine. Yes. You go on your fact finding mission of, of, of understanding your school context, as you said, a environmental scan. But I think, I think I had a good colleague of mine who is, who is a real model for my leadership development. And he said, when you come to a new school, it's like giving birth.

You wait for those ideas to develop for nine months. And then you give them birth and it takes that long for those ideas to actually come out in a fully formed, um, uh, creation or, or, um, format that will actually lead. You want to make sure that you understand everything, that you have a fully formed idea that has gone through all the trials and tribulations, and then in his that you actually start planning for the following year where you make changes.

The first one is really just about getting settled, making sure that everyone can trust you, making sure that you're, you're not going to upset the apple cart and that's perhaps not the greatest analogy, but it made sense to me in my mind.

[00:29:10] Bryn: I think that's really true, Corey, and I think it's that whole idea of you only get one. And make a first impression, right. And, and kind of setting that first impression about this is what things are gonna, how, what you can expect from me. Um, and from, from our leadership team, this is how we're going to move forward is, is really, really important to building that, um, that calm and, uh, predictable approach to administration that the, yeah, like the transactional pieces is a key piece.

[00:29:43] Corey: Well, if I remember correctly, when we came together, there was a certain individual that made us read the book, the speed of trust before we arrived in the, in the building. And, uh, and maybe you want to speak, I don't know if that's what you're going to say, uh, Dr. Heather tin, but, you know, that's, that, that comes down to that.

I think that, that, that idea. That you can only make progress as fast as people are going to trust you and the decisions you make. And, and I think that speaks to a lot of what we talked.

[00:30:13] Randy: I think the book you're referring to is trust matters by Megan to Shannon moron. Uh, and, and that, that, and there was also another, another beauty in there. I, I forced my administrators, the poor fellows to, to read all kinds of wonderful things. Um, Uh, in that respect, but I guess if I look at what was the one thing, I mean, we accomplished a lot of things, uh, with our staff, they were, they were a wonderful group and we did a lot of things, but probably our biggest accomplishment in the first.

Was making the clocks all tell the same time everywhere in the building and actually getting clocks that were, and just the sense of ease and that created more joy around the building that everyone knew and was on the same time period. So, Corey, I mean, you nailed it. Sometimes we have to keep the building running and that's sometimes I think a mistaken thing that people think that, oh, in your first year, oh, Hetherington is advocating that you don't change.

Not at all. I'm going more along the lines of what you and Brynne just said, that you change the things that need to be changed to keep everything running smoothly while you. Uh, build that baby Cory, to keep your metaphor flowing for the w w while you, you generate those bigger ideas that are gonna move the institution and the whole, the whole place forward, but you still have changes to make that's that transactional piece that really does truly have to be a part of it.

And, you know, There's a question I'm going to get a pose and it comes out of a, of an article way back when for the ATA leadership times, I think was the, was where it was published, but it focuses even on rural schools. Cause I know a lot of your audience Corey listens and they're in more of a rural, uh, situation capacity and it's even more important.

If you're going into a rural school is one of those first appointments that you understand about your community writ large and where that school is situated. Culturally values, beliefs, et cetera, because there's going to be a lot more around it. You need to know. Who are the big voices in that community who grants agency to people in that community?

Who are the influencers? I, sorry, I'm an old, I'm an old guy. And I'm sorry about that. But I, I understand this term, social media influencer or influencers is a new thing these days. I am not one of those people, but you do need to know who the influencers are. So that you can make sure that you hear their voices.

And that that's kind of a key thing, too. If you're going to ask people what they think and you gentlemen are, are great models for how to do that with the staff and make it work. You didn't just ask your folks what they thought you listened to what they said, and you reflect that you didn't always agree and do I'm sure, but you certainly listened and incorporated and people.

Heard. And I think that is key to starting at any new places. How do you involve the voices so that they are not only heard, but they feel listened to, uh, and that that's a bit of an art and a craft in and of itself that we, we learned to sometimes from some of our mentors. So yeah, no, I just thought I would throw that, that, that rural PCN and yeah, trust matters in, in a big way.

I would advocate for that book for anybody.

[00:33:39] Bryn: Randy. I always hear in my head whenever I think, oh, we should ask people that, that whole idea of only ask questions that you're actually willing to listen to the answers on, uh, and actually willing to maybe potentially make some changes based on the feedback that you get. And, uh, I think that that is, uh, always important, but it is. Incredibly important when you're starting in a, in a new building, that whole idea of only ask the questions that you're actually willing to, um, Consider the responses that you're going to receive about a road in like, in relation to those, those areas. Um, and then the other piece, Randy, like, like you were talking about, never always look for those opportunities for the easy victories and those, those simple things that you can do that, that have huge pay huge dividends in terms of building relationship and trust.

Um, Listen to your people. And when, when somebody says, Hey, this is something that's a relatively small thing that would make a big difference. Never, never take a, like Denver pushed that to the back. Always take advantage of those sorts of things. Cause they are, uh, they're incredibly important. Yeah.

[00:34:51] Corey: No, I, I agree. And the other thing that I remember from. Our time together is, uh, oftentimes especially the smaller school that you get to. Um, what is it, the STP factor, same 10 people, um, know who your same 10 people are pretty quick, um, and win them over. Like honestly, you know, those are the people that you want to, to make sure that they, they understand that you're on the same side that you're working together and you can, you can make a lot of things because those same 10 people then go out into the.

And they talk about your school. Don't you worry, they're talking about your, what you're doing. Um, and then they're the inside track. They're the inside voice. And so when they're down at the, uh, you know, if you're out here and, uh, on the Prairie's, if you're out at the hockey arena, in some of these small towns, Well, they're looking to you, they're going to come or they're going to come up to the community is going to come up to that person.

They know that you're, that they are connected and they're going to ask, you know, what does this person about, what are they doing? How's that interaction going? And, you know, you can do a lot of stuff in other places. It might be, you know, the, the soccer pitch or, or it might be the, the swimming pool, or it might be any number of different places.

Um, but also understanding what the community connections and the. Different connections inside of that school is pretty important too. And knowing, you know, how, how that web and that network of, of connections happens, that can be pretty important. Uh, I would say, so let's talk about now. Longer-term so I wanna, I want to bring this subject up with you.

Our thoughts, uh, we talked about, there are some school divisions that want to move people, every fight. Every three years, summits, every five, some don't have a thing. Here's the last question that I have for you. How do you know when it's time to go? Uh, what are some things that you both think about when it's actually time to make that move?

What do you look for? What do you feel? How perhaps have you known when it was time to take on a new school and to, to switch, uh, to switch to a new area?

[00:37:00] Randy: Bryn. You want to take that one on first?

[00:37:02] Bryn: So I think for me, it comes down to that kind of, Change is always a good thing. It is, is a kind of a key idea of the way that I've approached, um, my time in education, um, that, that opportunity to always be looking for change and not, jumping on it early, but at the same time, um, always being open to, you know, maybe a change is a good thing.

And so I think for me, when I have made changes in a lot of cases, not all cases, but in a lot of cases, it, it, it came down to, um, that maybe, uh, we could accomplish. Some of the key pieces that we wanted to work on. And we're kind of in that kind of transition zone where it's like, Okay.

what's the next step.

Right. Um, and so does it make sense to make a change there? I'm always, uh, I think, and I, I, Randy, you'd be able to probably give us the research around this, but that whole idea of an implementation kind of, um, Uh, like you, you ended up, you ended up hitting kind of a plateau. And so as you hit that plateau being aware that that maybe you're on that and that bringing somebody else in might allow for that kind of surge, because there is that surge, when you have somebody new coming in there's excitement, there's, uh, an opportunity to try some different things and not getting stuck on this is how we've always done it.

I think that, um, You know, that that whole idea of this is how we sell. We do things is, is great and it's predictable and it's important, but at the same time, this is how we do things can also lead us into a situation where we just keep doing what we're doing and not actually trying to improve. And so I think for me, it's, it's about recognizing when I have hit that point where this is how we do things is becoming the, the more, um, predominant.

Thought in my head, as opposed to, um, continuing to push, push and, and try to improve if that makes sense.

[00:39:02] Randy: Yeah, well, it certainly makes sense to me. And it's different words for it in different weather weather. Some people call it institutionalization. When, when you, when a change is no longer a change, it's no longer the different it's now the norm and, and getting that to the norm. And those are always nice transition points either to.

As you said, Brynne, the next change that's necessary. So we achieved that now, where are we let's do that scan again and figure out. And so a lot of folks will see that, that, that completion of an initiative, that completion of something as a point of change, Cory and, um, and succession plan. When you have the choice of when to go, as opposed to people, transferring you or telling you, oh, congratulations, you have a new opportunity next year, over at this new place.

Uh, those are ones you can't control, but as much as possible you try to, and this goes right back, full circle to where we see. In some ways to leadership capacity is you try to make the things that you are doing to improve that school, to improve that community, to be things that survive your departure.

I've always been a proponent in any school, in any business, in any organization. People often say, oh, we have a great, and they'll fill in the blank program. I said, okay, who leads it? Right. If that person were to leave. Would you still have the PR? Oh, well, though. And if the answer to that is no, then you really haven't gotten to that institutionalization stage that embedding it in the culture stage, you haven't finished that change.

It's still in progress because it's still dependent on the heroic leader or that, that good. And it's not to say we don't need those transformational people to lead those initiatives or those transformative people to lead those initiatives. We do. But knowing when it's time to go. Uh, I always told myself, um, and, and on eyes stuck to it that if I ever felt that I had done what I needed to do and needed to contribute in a different way, or that, that would be the day I would start making sure that the building was ready for.

To leave. Uh, and, and for some new ideas, fresh ideas and things to come in and hopefully, you know, that was what I was able to do in, in both of the schools that I left as principal, um, and came to. Cause that's certainly what I think you, you, you seek to do there's no year two at core. I don't think you can say it's after three or after five.

I think it's school dependent, community dependent context dependent and person dependent. What I have loved to, I worked with the dynamic trio. 10 years. Sure. But circumstances changed that after three and then again after four and you know, it's just, that's just what happens.

[00:41:51] Corey: well, I'm going to bring up a different aspect of this. It's. I go, I think the other thing that we haven't brought up is that when we move schools, there is a huge, uh, learning that happens for the leader. And so the other part of this might be, you know, if things are going well and you look in the mirror one day and you say, do you know what, uh, you know, this.

This, I don't want to say it gets boring, cause it never gets boring, but it's like, Hey, you know, at one point or another, you look in the mirror and you say maybe it's time for me to push myself so that I can learn in a new context. Alternatively, there are times when we can look around and say, Hey, do you know what?

I think that I could do a lot of good over there. You know, I think that we've done. You never want to leave a building where you think that you've left it worse than you, then you arrived. But there are times when things are going fairly well and you look around and that's where, you know, superintendents and more of the executive leadership can look around and hopefully they've got a good handle of who their people are and, and where they, where their strengths are.

And there's nothing, I think better than saying, Hey, I think you could go to the school and have a really big impact on that community and those students and those that staff. And I think that you've got strengths that would lead that or alternative. Hey, I think that this school would, would present you with the opportunity to learn some new things.

You're really great at all of these other things, but you know what? I think that this is going to push you to go and, and that's always served me well. And what I mean by that is sometimes we learn best by thrusting ourselves into situations where we have no, no other alternative than to learn. And. And, you know, I've, I think that that's, that is really great positive growth.

And so I know you both kind of said, okay. So I think the other aspect is really looking at it individually and saying, okay, there's also a personal part of that from the leader side.

[00:43:57] Bryn: And refine things, right? Like there's how often do you do something that you've tried in a different building that maybe didn't go quite as, uh, anticipated and while we never want to leave a building worse, there are certainly times where, you know, this is an idea that we think is going to work really well and it blows up in your face, or it doesn't go the way you want it to.

Um, but it's that opportunity to try that again and, and maybe retool and reset it. And I think that there's huge opportunity in that in learning. And getting better at what we're doing.

[00:44:27] Corey: Do you want, we're going to, uh, I want to kind of move towards wrapping this up and I think it's been a really great conversation and we brought up a whole bunch of different aspects. And so one last word, we'll go around the table one more time. And, uh, one last. Say, you know, final thoughts on, on moving schools and, uh, when any, anything that comes to mind right now, and we'll start with you, Dr.

Heatherington.

[00:44:51] Randy: Sure. And this one's an easy in a short one. You'll be pleased to know. Uh, I, I, the one thing I would leave people with, if you're going to a new school, be prepared for the time commitment, a lot of people will feel that a new building there's so much to do. They lock themselves away in their office and paperwork and all these other kinds of things.

My advice is you need to be out with your people out in the hallways. Oh, greeting out, spend the time you can do the paperwork at a different time. Uh, and some people say, well, I can't afford to leave. I'm going to say you can't afford not to. You can't afford not to invest the time in getting to know your people, getting to know your community, et cetera, that will pay off such huge dividends down the road.

Uh, it's a huge investment in the future of yourself, professionally and of your building. So invest the time and know that.

[00:45:40] Bryn: Yeah, Randy, I, I couldn't agree more being in the hallway and looking. And being available to people and popping in on people when they have a prep to just sit down and talk and, and, uh, talking to your school community. And then the other piece that I think is really important, uh, is really talking to students and getting student perspective.

And, and sometimes we get really fixated on, you know, how what's, what's happening with staff and how are staff feeling and how are parents feeling? Those are kind of the obvious ones and sometimes, uh, making sure. As an administrator where spending time with kids and getting to know what's going on in, from their perspective to their, they're a huge source of information.

And, uh, in a lot of cases, we'll give us. Pretty unbiased feedback about what's what's working and then also what's not working. Uh, and so making sure that, you know you're out on, on recess supervision or, or recess, just to talk to kids and see what's going on for them and, and gathering feedback from them, I think is a big piece of, of really setting up and, and gathering, especially in that information seeking phase and, and, uh, just getting the kids perspective.

[00:46:56] Corey: Gentlemen. I want to thank you so much. It's uh, it's really good to, to talk again. Uh, I'm sure that we will come back together and, and. To our next topic, but as always, I really appreciate both of your perspectives and the knowledge you bring and just can't thank you enough for joining us today. So thank you very much.