Intersection Education

Carolyn Cameron 2
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Corey Haley: [00:00:00] Carolyn Cameron it's great to have you back on the show today. And I have to say that I really enjoyed your book "Renewal". Since the last time we spoke, you came up with this amazing book and I, I wanted to start there. The book is called "Renewal". And I wanted to just talk about the title. What are you suggesting here to renew? Now I've read it. So I kind of know the answer, but, um, you know, someone who might pick this book up, they say, okay, what am I supposed to renew myself? Or maybe the approach to leadership or to education? Maybe all of the above. Let's start there.

Carolyn Cameron: Thanks so much, Corey, and thanks for inviting me to join you and have a conversation about this book. This was a project that I'm a, I'm kind of really interested in how the timing of it all worked out, because I knew it was going to be called renewal. It was, it was based on my dissertation. I completed a couple of years ago and I just [00:01:00] think, wow, you know, this whole pandemic, kind of speaks to the opportunity that we have in front of us to really renew ourselves. You know, I'm not in the system right now, working in schools right now. So I don't know the day-to-day reality that you All are experiencing in the schools, but I read, I hear I talk to friends and, you know, I just can't imagine how challenging it is. And it just honestly fits in with this whole concept of renewal and what an opportunity. I mean, I know, gosh, it's, I imagine it's been so challenging, but the book I speak about the challenges and the problems that come up in front of us as opportunities, always to renew. To take a look at what we're doing. To take an observer stance, to be open and curious learner to say, what, what does this mean? What could we be doing differently?

So I think this pandemic, and I talk to students that I teach in a, in a [00:02:00] master's cohort about what have you learned from this huge challenge that everyone's facing right now, in your context in your schools? Is there something that is causing you to, to know or understand that you need to renew yourself, renew your system, renew processes? What is it? Is it helping you kind of take a step back?

And for many I've heard that is really becoming abundantly clear that in a crisis situation, learning of the staff and teachers and leaders takes a back seat to managing the crisis. Right? It just seems to be that that learning has not been... it's the time to spend learning and chatting and discussing has not been available because people are busy responding. It's that I call it whack-a-mole you're just kind of responding to each situation as a comes first, " what are we going to do? Let's do that." But I said, if when you, when, and if you have time to reflect, are there things that you're noticing that you're doing, systems or processes or approaches [00:03:00] that you could renew that would help you navigate this crisis, this challenge better?

And it's interesting to hear, different folks talk about, well, you know, we have a really collaborative culture. So when we were told, some of us have to do online, some of us have to do this, and we're having to navigate all of this, this chaos, that it sounded to me like folks that were fairly collaborative and able to call on each other and, and kind of share the load or adjust the load or learn from each other quickly, were in a situation where, yeah, it wasn't as, as difficult as it might have been. I don't know if that makes sense.

So, not every individual teacher is trying to do this alone. So this whole idea of renewing the way we work together, renewing the kind of learning that we want to have happened for our students and people are recognizing and telling me, they've really noticed that a lot of old [00:04:00] school approaches are being implemented just because it's quick and easy, like online learning. I mean, we're, we're not actually engaged in authentic, not everybody, and I don't want to speak, you know, across the whole board. But, what I'm hearing is that people are a little frustrated that they've gone back to methods and strategies and teaching practices that they know might not be the best for student learning for authentic student learning. I wouldn't want to generalize.

So to answer your question, renewal is about, well, what can we do given our situation? What can we, how can we renew our system? Are there things that we should be putting in place that allow us to be more adaptable when, when these situations arise? When I say renewal, I'm absolutely talking about all of it.

You know, sometimes I'm just, I'm so humbled by all the work that all of you are doing. I think, well, what place do I have at this moment to say, "Hey folks, why don't y'all go renew yourselves". You're like kinda hanging by a thread on any given moment. But the truth of the matter is this is the time to think about [00:05:00] processes and structures that we have all taken for granted, this is the way we always do things. Well, how might we do this differently so that we can be more effective during this time? So, basically, renewal is about renewing all of it all the time, particularly in time of crisis.

Corey Haley: No, I think that that's a really good summary of it. And I realize that's, it's a huge question, but I really did like your answer there, and that is seeing challenges as opportunities and evaluating what we are going to look at, which challenges are we going to try to approach, by renewing some of the things that we have, I totally agree that you're, you know, the team approach, it seems like those that were better connected have managed the current crisis in education around COVID a little bit better, but not all people seem to think that challenges are opportunities. And I think that that's true in a crisis, but it's true, even in everyday [00:06:00] general teaching. Continual improvement and change for improvement is one of the central themes of your book. But, what are some of the things that you saw that really helped to keep people's, approach to seeing challenges as opportunities? And what are some of the things that you felt really helped lead the work to have that continual improvement and to have this eye for renewal, as any situation progresses, but even in just general when we're not in a crisis.

Carolyn Cameron: In my experience has been, and my research has been when a leader models a natural disposition towards learning. My understanding of how to keep people continually engaged. I mean, you can't, you can't make people learn. You can't make people be interested in learning. All you can do as a leader is create the conditions. And one of the ways you create those conditions is be a learner yourself and be curious and be asking questions and not being the one [00:07:00] with the answers. So when we have situations like this, Where you asked the question, well, what could we be doing differently so that we can make this more engaging for our learners?

What can so always being open to questioning current practice, not with a judgment, point of view, but with a genuine curiosity for wanting to figure things out. And when you start to develop that way of talking that culture of thinking that culture of curiosity, it is contagious. That's what you want with the kids, you want a culture of collaborative inquiry of problem-solving. So yeah, problems are absolutely the opening that provides the opportunity to make some changes, to look at doing things differently.

Also Corey, I found it particularly helpful during my time as a school leader to connect with critical friends, they kept me honest, that it kept me moving forward. I mean, you know you just get so caught up in the day-to-day management and doing these things that, you know, you just have to do to get things done, to run the organization, but [00:08:00] with the help of critical friends, whether that's a university researcher, whether that's, some, you know, learning support, uh, folks from the district office, whoever it is, who will keep you focused on moving forward and they come back and they, if the critical friend asks the tough questions, right? It's like you would like your teachers to have critical friends of each other to be each other's critical friend. You need one too as a school leader, you need somebody who's keeping your feet marching forward and holding you accountable. Like, well, you said you were going to do this. Are you going to, you know, what, what's your evidence that you've done anything. And have those checkpoints and I'm not sure if all districts have that for their leaders, but I know that there are certain districts that do that have leadership teams from the district that come in to the schools and actually not, not just a growth plan meeting, but an actual, regular ongoing conversation about what is it we're doing, whether that's a, and that person does not need to come from the district office. It can be somebody[00:09:00] you've connected with, from outside the organization, if that's not available within the school district. But I think honestly, it's critically important to have that support network, that critical friend, who keeps you seeing a different perspective, using the research to move the organization forward and holds you accountable to actually, you know, doing what you said you were going to do and looking for evidence that it's having an impact. Um, so that's another part.

And I also wanted to just talk to you really briefly about somebody I quoted in the book, Ron Richard. His organization, it's a creating cultures of thinking. And this one in particular is about creating a culture of thinking among the leaders and learners of the organization that the teachers or the teachers and the leaders. And I'm just going to read to you really quickly, just a couple of ideas that, that they talk about when there's a culture of learning a culture of thinking existing in an organization. This is what, this is what we would see.

Everyone's [00:10:00] input is valued and there's creating a sense of respect. There's constant questioning and probing of ideas by everyone in the group, not just the leader. The leader is engaged, interested, and passionate. The leader is a learner along with everyone else. So that's what I was speaking to before. Like you model that for the organization, there's open communication, active listening. You felt heard time. To think, respond and develop ideas. There's a safety felt to take risks, make mistakes. There was an openness you're vulnerable, and it's, it's expected to be part of the process that, that there will be mistakes nobody's being judged, uh, for trying, trying to do something different. That's good for kids. There are stimulating group interactions, the group likes each other. They have the push and support one another. And that's, again, speaking to the critical friend component that, you know, we want each other to do the best for the organization. We want to improve. We want to be part of that [00:11:00] support network. And then our learning was connected to stuff that matters to our lives and that value and it had meaning.

So I think, can you ask about how do you, how do you keep it interesting. How do you keep progressing for your staff? And I found that when staff with teachers, when they are engaged in a group project together, there is an energy that's created there. They're excited to share. They're excited to learn together. I think that's really, really critical as well. That there's something that they're working on together. That's for the good of the students, for sure.

That's that is, it's going to make the learning for kids better. And I found always when we've always brought it back to the students and what would be something that we could do together collectively that's going to make the situation for learning better for our students. Staff would buy in, not all, not all the time.

Corey Haley: You know, one of the things that strikes me when you speak is the importance of the team of the collaborative approach, the [00:12:00] team approach and how we are thinking together and moving forward together. I'd like to know why. And I think that's evident, but I'd like to have your input on why this is important. Why is this team important? A team approach is important, but also some of the ways that you suggest building a great team and I'm not necessarily talking about hiring. It's about, you know, working with the people that you have to develop that collaborative thinking and approach.

Carolyn Cameron: You know, Corey, I think that there's some real misinterpretation of that idea team out there. I believe that it's about, you know, but the misinterpretation is that it's about rah, rah, we're in this together. Our team's working hard together, like look at us, go. And it's a great thing. We're all in. That's a real surface level way of experiencing teamwork and the value of team.

Teamwork is so much deeper than that, it's so much more [00:13:00] difficult than that. With any functioning team, whether, you know, you're talking about, uh, a marriage as a, as teamwork, uh, a family team or any kind of team, I often drew on, uh, the sports area of my son's hockey team, just because, you know, that was so in my face all the time as a hockey mom all those years, but the bottom line is, within ateam, any team you have to respect what everybody brings to the team and respect the idea that everybody is going to bring something different. We're not all going to see eye to eye. Incredibly important to have a shared value system, a shared purpose, a shared vision mission, you know, to really believe it, to be on the same page when it comes to student learning.

And that that in and of itself is a whole other area that needs to be developed. But at the end of the day, everybody's going to come bringing, different strengths, different expertise, and that, that absolutely makes the [00:14:00] richness of the experience in that school so much deeper, so much better for kids. Uh, so I think sometimes the misunderstanding and the misinterpretation is that, you know, as a team, we all do everything together the same way, the same, like that's no, no way Jose that is so not what we mean. It, there is value in diversity, but the diverse people, diverse members of the team only make the team stronger bottom line.

And you know, this, everybody, anybody who's in education or yeah. Anybody in education would recognize that the work that we undertake in our schools and in our classrooms is far too complex, far too demanding for anyone to do it alone. And I'm, and I'm speaking, not only about leaders, you know, having a leadership team, I'm talking about teachers being supported by, with, and for each other. That teachers are really part of that network that makes the going[00:15:00] , I don't want to say easier that cause all my experience. I mean, I'm just like a total team groupie when I, I don't do anything almost by myself anymore on.

I just got to say I, when I, when I uncovered this whole team teaching, working together with other colleagues, I think it was, uh, many, many, many years. Let's go with 25. I was like, oh my God, this is the hardest work I've ever done. This is taking so much time out of my work I'm doing with students, but I have to tell you, it was the most profound learning I ever had in my whole career. And it led it, it kind of paved the way for. My future as a teacher. And then as a leader.

I just realized the value of differences, the value of having others to lean on, to bounce ideas around with, and it is time consuming. It's demanding, it's exhausting, just like the work is doing it alone, but there's so much reward celebrating with others, uh, solving a problem, trying to [00:16:00] figure out a student need when you're with others. So I have to tell you it's. Developing as a strong teams within an organization is the most important, the most important work we can do, honestly.

Corey Haley: Yeah, absolutely. Your perspective on that comes across really well, not only in your book, but when we, when we speak, but I have one other side or maybe another flip of that coin. And, and because it's, it's linked to what you're talking about, and it's a little bit different. When you have that team approach sometimes the natural progression of that is to really have distributed leadership, and you talked about that where people's opinions and perspectives are respected and heard, but there is also perspective of, we need to sometimes shelter some staff from too many decisions. And what I mean by that is, you know, there's some stuff that we really do want people's approach on or their perspective on. And there's other things that, you know, let me take [00:17:00] all this other unimportant stuff away. I'll be the umbrella. And that is a difficult balance because sometimes we don't know what we need to shelter from and what we need to have their voice heard on. And it was wondering how you approached this balance? What are some of the things that helped you make decisions on what do I get feedback on? What do I bring this team together to talk about so that we can make a decision together? And what do I leave them out of, because this is not as important and I don't need their feedback on and they can focus on other things.

Carolyn Cameron: Yeah, I think that's a good question. All your questions are good, Corey, this is one that really, to me, as I was thinking about this idea of, you know, the umbrella, and I remember talking about that a lot with other principals. How much do you share?

And I guess I kind of think of it contextually as an individual by individual situation. It depends on the issue. Depends on the people. [00:18:00] Depends on who you're going to, to make this decision with, but I'll tell you, I believe that more transparency is better than less. I believe just like the making your thinking visible. I think it's really important to make your thinking visible for students and learning, but also as a leader, because as a leader you're continually building the capacity for other leaders in your school organization or in your district, whatever the level of leadership is. I believe that as much as possible talking through what you're thinking is, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, you think this is a good idea is better to do it more often than less often.

And I recognize that there are, there are minuscule things that people do not need to be part of and, and that's fine and they shouldn't be, but I think whenever the decision being made has some sort of an impact on the person, the people, whoever is involved in the effect of that decision, [00:19:00] they they need to be, if, if not having a voice in it, they need to be aware of what your thinking was and why you made that decision you did and why you didn't involve them in it. So for me, the more transparent, the better. And you just let them know, listen, you don't need to be involved in this. I'm trying to not have you get too much on your plate. If you do have something you want to help me with it, you want it to be part of this, you're welcome to, but I'm recognizing that you don't need to.

And I think a specific example of that Corey is I used to have a couple of different kinds of meetings with staff. And one of them was optional staff meeting, where we talked about some of the decisions being made. If people wanted to have input on the decision, they were welcome to come and hash it up, but it was an after hours kind of thing. And we would share what was decided, the way the decision was made with those who, who just didn't have time or not interested in. And the idea there is that if you've decided you don't want to be a part of that decision then, but you still have to accept the decision that was made, if that [00:20:00] makes sense. But I think more is better, I guess, but always kind of using judgment on a specific situation. Does that make sense when I'm saying?

Corey Haley: That makes total sense. I think it makes total sense. And I also appreciate that there is no there's no pat answer because each situation is different, but I do like how you shared your approach, which is more transparency is better than less. I actually do like your idea of this invitation for the staff meeting, because if it is too much, well, then, you know, you can make that choice. And I think that we've got a lot more options and tools right now to make those accessible.

Now, one of the things that I really liked about your book and I felt it made it really personal was the stories that you shared, um, personal stories about your leadership journey and some good times and some bad times and you share them all right. You share some pretty uplifting stories and you share some extremely challenging stories.[00:21:00]

What I particularly liked was you shared some stories, but then you shared your personal feelings on that, or how, how it made you feel as a leader and how those were challenging times. Now, leadership is pretty easy in good times but it can be actually quite hard when things are difficult and both hard professionally and personally, and people are looking to us for answers.

And sometimes I feel, and the research would show, that leaders do bear that weight. And I think that your book really shows that you've lived that. Now we're not in perhaps some of the dire times that you share in your book. Um, but I would love to know what are some suggestions that you have for leaders when you're approaching difficult times, times of crisis? When you feel like the weights on your shoulder and you feel like you need to still stand up straight and, and as you talk about in your book, get, get right back up in front [00:22:00] of staff and put on the brave face.

Carolyn Cameron: Yeah. You know what I was just thinking about? I was thinking about what actually brings us to this work. Like there's some weird sickness we have, that we thrive in chaos. I don't know. I guess leadership through the really, really challenging, difficult times... I think, and that's what I tried to kind of portray in the whole book, whether it's a good time by the time, anything in between, there is no a toolkit. There's no toolbox. There's no one size fits all kind of way to go about it. I talk about the knowing, the doing, and the being of leadership.

And so, we can know all of the theories about leadership. We can know all the curriculum. We can know all of the assessment plans. We know all of the things we should be doing. And so there's a knowledge base and there's a doing, and we know we get out [00:23:00] there and we do the work and sometimes we're so caught up in doing that we don't actually have an awareness of the being part of leadership, being a school leader. And that is something that we learned through practical experience. Just slugging it out, going in there and just reflecting on "what is it I am learning about myself and my leadership and what matters"? And it's through those challenging times. And I wrote about it in the book in, particular that I learned how important it was to not be too, too wrapped up in my own checklists, my own to-do list, my own activities, the things I need to do to keep moving this group forward, but to be present, be with my staff, be with others. If I could tell you [00:24:00] anything that I would, I would hope that people would get from this book, it's about the value of being a leader and being present to all of the craziness that confronts you. And, and I don't want to sound like, you know, this Pollyanna blue sky gal that, oh, "Hey, heck just, we can always find a silver lining in the cloud", because the truth of the matter is it is heartbreaking, heart-wrenching work sometimes. So in those instances, I think it's really important to recognize that you're not in this alone. Always have that network calling somebody out there, who you got to find your people who you can actually work through this stuff with. People that will keep your rants or your venting in the vault. People that you trust as a person doesn't matter one to five, whatever it is you need. I think as a leader, that's critical. I always had that and that [00:25:00] got me through like some of the situations I described in the book.

The other is, stay connected, always stay connected with what brought you to the work in the first place. And I would suggest that most of us who are in it for the long haul and do this crazy teaching leading gig for years on end are really tightly connected to the students and recognize that that's our reason for being. And so as often as possible, whenever possible, getting reconnected with the kids, the learning, getting into classrooms, whether it's just for a visit or for actually getting engaged in a team teaching situation. But during those difficult times, for me, it was more important than ever to stay connected with the kids, stay connected with the students. For sure. It reminds you, it kind of, for me, it fed me, reminded me of why I was doing the work and re-energize the battery for [00:26:00] sure. Um, because yeah, it's tough. It's tough work, but rewarding. Hey.

Corey Haley: So rewarding. So rewarding. Yeah. I don't want you to think that I think it's all doom and gloom. Uh, absolutely not,

Carolyn Cameron: No, no, no.

Corey Haley: There are definitely some, some days I think that anyone coming into leadership needs to know and have their eyes open. So, no, I appreciate that. And I think that those are some good suggestions.

Now, you know, we've read, I've read the book. I hopefully some other people will go and read the book. And one of the things that I think about, is that okay? So you've, you've written this amazing book but we know that it doesn't stop. Now, if I know you, I know you've got some, some pots that are bubbling and some ideas that are, that are percolating, and I always want to know what are you thinking about and what are you learning about right now? What's next? What's the new ideas? What are some of the things? What can we look forward to seeing from you in the coming months or years?

Carolyn Cameron: Well, you know, As a matter of fact, there are a few things on the go right now. And, and I guess, um, [00:27:00] one of the things I'm most keen about doing was a few things about, so I'll share them all. But one is, I started a couple years ago working with the university of Lethbridge. I also did some work with university of Calgary on a leadership cohort. I'm teaching a master's class to aspiring leaders it's, it's connected to the leadership quality standard. What I love about that work is it keeps me involved in what's going on in the field. So each spring I work with about 15 or so aspiring leaders, in that class.

From that it's so interesting to hear what they're struggling with the most. And so I'll share with you a little bit about what it seems to me that is still such a difficult concept for leaders. And that's the whole idea of, of teacher growth, supervision, and evaluation . So the work I've done with the cohorts is where we're still engaged [00:28:00] in what kind of leader do you want to be? How are you going to set up networks of learning and what does teacher supervision look like? I think we're all pretty aware of formal evaluations, but what is teacher's growth and what's teacher supervision. How are they the same? How are they different? How are you actually, as a leader, able to work with your teachers to enhance their growth again, growth slash renewal. So as a leader it is absolutely is your responsibility to nurture the renewal and growth of of your teachers and yourself.

Of course, always, always learning, always growing and, and, and, and being part of a cohort or a learning collaborative inquiry group yourself. For teachers, how do you do that as a colleague, as, as their boss? Those are things that we're talking about.

I, I know that you know this about me. One of my favorite researchers, Vivian Robinson has some research that she's done about open to learning [00:29:00] conversations. I'm doing a little reading on generative dialogue. Just how do we as leaders engage as coaches, not formal evaluators more as, how do we create that environment of challenge, respect, and trust, where we can actually have impact on the teaching and learning that's going on. That everybody is always asking questions and challenging themselves to get better.

The other thing I'm working on is this has just come up. Taking a contract with the ministry of education in British Columbia, and they've created a framework for enhancing student learning and they are curious and wanting to build capacity for district leaders around the province to engage in a continuous learning model.

Obviously we're, that's, that's our assurance in Alberta is a continuous learning, but, so what does that actually mean in practice? We talk about inquiry the, the cycle of inquiry from Judy Halbert and Linda Kaiser. They're actually using [00:30:00] that model across the province in BC as a way to engage in continuous improvement with school districts. So I'm learning with that organization and I'm going to be supporting some of that work. So I'm kind of excited about that.

The idea is are our traditional standard ways of assessing success for students is not meeting the needs of the diverse learners, particular indigenous students. So we'll be doing some at how we can collect data differently. What kind of data we're looking at that determines whether we're being successful or not, how we're approaching diverse learners.

And finally, my most exciting project is a children's book that I am excited about collaborating on with a dear friend that I went to university with. She was a teacher, she just retired and she is lovely illustrator. So we are working together on a book that I hope it will be something for parents and grandparents, just as much as it is for children. So kind of one of those books that causes [00:31:00] us to maybe reconnect with our sense of wonder and curiosity.

Corey Haley: That sounds amazing. It sounds so interesting. And it sounds like you are going to be one busy person in the coming months and everything like that. I look forward to reading the book. I look forward to talking to you more about some of this. I mean, there's one right in my wheelhouse is continuous learning and what does that actually look like? And, uh, and I, I know that your students in your master's classes are going to be just, they, they are so lucky to have you Carolyn, and I want to thank you so much for speaking to me today and for, for everyone who's listening. So thank you very much.

Carolyn Cameron: Thank you, Corey. It was a pleasure.